“As the salt flavors every drop in the Atlantic, so does sin affect every atom of our nature. It is so sadly there, so abundantly there, that if you cannot detect it, you are deceived.”
“The venom of sin is in the very fountain of our being; it has poisoned our heart. It is in the very marrow of our bones and is as natural to us as anything that belongs to us.”
“We declare on scriptural authority that the human will is so desperately set on mischief, so depraved, so inclined to everything that is evil, and so disinclined to everything that is good, that without the powerful, supernatural, irresistible influence of the Holy Spirit, no human will will ever be constrained toward Christ.”
“Free-will doctrine—what does it? It magnifies man into God. It declares God’s purposes a nullity, since they cannot be carried out unless men are willing. It makes God’s will a waiting servant to the will of man.”
“If God requires of the sinner, dead in sin, that he should take the first step, then he requires just that which renders salvation as impossible under the gospel as it was under the law, since man is as unable to believe as he is to obey.”
“Free-will doctrine—what does it? It magnifies man into God. It declares God’s purposes a nullity, since they cannot be carried out unless men are willing. It makes God’s will a waiting servant to the will of man.”
Not at Mr. Spurgeon, if man has no ability to choose between right and wrong, then how can he be held responsible. Would someone hold a paraplegic responsible for not being able to walk after asking him to do so, when he doesn’t have the ability to do otherwise? Of course not. LFW doctrine glorifies God by promoting genuine love, which is a two way street, initiated by God, and also serves to show God’s perfect justice.
Deuteronomy 24:16
16“Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18:20
20 “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
As far as one’s ability to come to Christ, see my comment below. God must always initiate. Another important fact is that the early church fathers held to LFW, Pre-Nicene as well as the post Nicene, excluding Augustine.
“If God requires of the sinner, dead in sin, that he should take the first step, then he requires just that which renders salvation as impossible under the gospel as it was under the law, since man is as unable to believe as he is to obey.”
Although I hold to TD, I don’t hold to his last quote. The whole dead argument is for a lack of a better word, dead. People are alienated and will not come to Christ apart from God’s prevenient grace. That grace, the gospel empowered by the Holy Spirit, convicts the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment. In other words his eyes are open, but if that sinner is not given ultimately the choice to reject or receive the gift, it’s no longer a gift. You would be forced to redefine the word gift.
Russ, you ask, “if man has no ability to choose between right and wrong, then how can he be held responsible?” Here’s the short answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzRdS_tdmAU&feature=player_embedded
Well, John mainly deals with our inability to come to Christ for salvation. I agree that apart from God’s grace we cannot and will not come to Christ. John didn’t really address whether man in his depraved state can chose between right and wrong. Here’s an illustration that I think captures the more biblical view; if two guys are standing on the corner of a busy intersection and one of them decides to go when a car is headed straight for him. The second guy immediately grabs the first guy out of the way of the oncoming car, thus saving his life. What has happened here is the second guy who saved the first guys life chose between good(pulled the man to safety) and evil(let the first guy get hit by the car). Now what has the second person done as far as salvation by Faith in Christ? Absolutely nothing. But what he did do is chose between good and evil. If he chose to stand there and let the guy get hit by the car, he just committed evil before God. That’s how biblical justice plays out.
Deuteronomy 24:16
16“Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18:20
20 “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
Russ, John Piper’s point is the main point of total depravity – man’s inability to choose the ultimate good – the Lordship of Christ and salvation. Man is capable of much “good” on a human/horizontal plane but of no ultimate good in terms of how God defines goodness. This is because man’s heart (while still unregenerate) is always at emnity with God in all that he does. Man has a hostile disposition against God and will not submit to God’s law from the heart. He can choose to give to charities, comfort the afflicted, help the poor and even build a hospital; and he can do this rather than choose to murder everyone he meets. Man is certainly capable of this. That is understood. But what he cannot do is to give to others or build a hospital from the motivation of doing it “for the glory of God” because his heart does not wish for such a thing.
While building a hospital is a WHOLE LOT BETTER than murdering people and is extremely commendable in the sight of man, he cannot point to even this act of generosity as a “good work” IN THE SIGHT OF GOD for the simply reason that it was never done with the pure motive of the glory of God. That is in fact one of the ways God defines sin – as a coming short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). All our righteousness (notice the word “all” – it is an all inclusive term covering the very best man can do politically, spiritually, economically, socially, culturally, physically – everything man carries out as an action seeking to pleaee God) is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).
The doctrine of Total Depravity does not intend to say that man is as depraved as he possible COULD be; rather it affirms that every aspect of man has been corrupted by the Fall so that as a result, “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” Romans 3:10-12. For more on this: http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/01/the_apparent_good_in_natural_m_1.php
The point I’m trying to make is that men dead in tresspasses and sin are not so dead to choose from good and evil/sin.
How are you defining “good” – according to what standard of goodness? On a human level, man can do “good” things, but not according to God’s standard of goodness (Isaiah 64:6; Romans 3:10-12).
I defining it as chosing to either sin or not sin, when I speak about good and evil
Russ, so you believe unregenerate man has the ability to not sin? This goes against all sound doctrine concerning the nature of man since the Fall as this article explains: http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/radical-corruption/
John how would you address the verses below with your view of TD. If the unregenerate man has no ability to chose to sin or not to sin. Well then your theology just made God the author of sin and evil. Why? Because he made man that could do nothing but sin…. Again lets deal with the below. How can “everyone shall be put to death for his own sin”, if all they could do is sin. I ask that you demonstrate your position in scripture please and deal with the scriptures below.
Deuteronomy 24:16
16“Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18:20
20 “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
Russ,
It would seem that you deny the doctrine of Original Sin. It is quite clearly a biblical doctrine.
Regarding your question, here’s an article on the subject here: http://effectualgrace.com/2012/03/15/original-sin-and-the-misuse-of-ezekiel-1820/