A transcript from a Question and Answers session with Dr. R. C. Sproul and Rev. Rick Phillips at a Ligonier Conference in 2007:
Question: Can one be a true Christian and never go to Church? … what about people who have jobs which mean that they are constantly working on Sundays and therefore are not in Church? (this may well involve two different questions….)
Dr. R. C. Sproul: “I would say that it is possible to be a Christian and never go to Church. The thief on the cross never had any opportunity to go to Church. The Roman Catholic Church defines the votum ecclesium explicitum, which is an explicit desire to be joined to the Church but you are providentially hindered from doing it; OR at least the implicitum – that you have some desire in your heart to do what is pleasing to God, you just don’t know yet that going to Church is pleasing to God.
If you are a Christian and persistently absent yourself from the assembling together of the saints of God, that would indicate to me that your profession is a false profession. Its possible for someone who does not know any better, for a short time after their conversion, to not be involved in a (local) body, but how can you have even an elementary understanding of the commandments of Christ and absent yourself from His body for any protracted length of time? If somebody did that I would say that is very strong evidence that they were never really converted.
Rick Phillips: “There’s different kinds of necessity. It is not necessary as a condition of salvation but under normal circumstances it is a necessary consequence, as is sanctification in general. It is normative that we should be part of the people of God and their worship. And I want to say…. now I dont know the person and I dont know the particulars… but you are are making a tragically foolish life choice if you are in an occupation that keeps you from being part of the people of God both in their worship and therefore in their life. When we look back on our lives the quality and value of the teaching in the Church and our participation in the Church will be one of the chief features through which we were a blessing to others and we were blessed.
It blows my mind (as a pastor).. someone will come to me and ask “Pastor, can you tell me if there’s a good church in such and such a city?” and I will say, “well why do you ask?”
“I’ve decided to move there.”
You’ve decided to move someplace without knowing what churches are there? Why?
“I’m making $10,000 more.”
That is a foolish choice. You’ve got children.. and we factor in the availability of God fearing Bible Reformed churches – that takes such a low place in our decision making; whereas the salary is everything. And one of the most important things in our lives will be the faithfulness of the word that’s preached and the church that we go to and where we raise our children. It needs to be FAR higher on our priority list.
Sproul: “You think of the story of Abraham and Lot, when their cowboys couldn’t get along, Abraham said, “now look, lets not fuss. We’ll divide the land in half. You go first. You choose first. You take whatever you want.” And Lot looked over this way and he saw grass, wonderful places for grazing his cattle. There was a city there where he could take his cattle to market. All he saw were dollar signs (or shekels, or whatever it was at the time) in his head.. and said “I’ll take that” leaving Abraham with the arid desert, a horrible place to raise cows. And so Abraham acknowledged it – he made a bargain and allowed his relative to take what he wanted. And Lot chose Sodom and Sodom was a fantastic place to raise cows, but it was a horrible place to raise his family, which he found out. And that is what Rick is saying, “why wouldn’t where you go to Church be paramount before you make a decision to move somewhere?”
Phillips: “And then Lot was saved by God’s grace but not Lot’s daughters.”
Sproul: “That’s right.”
Are there scriptures that back up what you are saying? When I read the Bible in it’s context, I don’t see anywhere that going to church is necessary for your salvation. We are the church…the new jerusaleum….the new Israel…when we are drawn by the sovereign and effectual grace of God. In fact Jesus taught that the temple would be replaced by one not made with hands….but a spiritual temple that would live for eternity. We (the church) certainly do need each other…for edification…accountability…encouragement…etc. but not physically getting up and going to a church building does not to me mean you are not a “true Christian”. I normally don’t respond to these bog spots or whatever they are but this struck me when I saw it and I know you guys are well respected in your teachings so I’m way out of my league as far as knowledge but I’ve spent the last three years or so out of the organized church and have learned more in searching God’s word and being BEREAN
Hi Shan,
Sure there are many Scriptures where Christ, through His apostles, tells us to be part of a local Church. See the article found here: http://effectualgrace.com/2011/07/08/is-church-membership-biblical/
So, which local church am I to belong to….and which pastor am I to submit myself to? My spiritual life has been an evolution. I have gone from baptist to methodist to full gospel to assembly of God to independent, now to “home church” and Berean. Like the saying goes, “not all who wander are lost.” I would not trade where I am in my spiritual “journey” for anything….and I am a result of all that I have been a part of. I have had some of the worst pastors and teachers, as well as some good ones too. Presently, I am in an area where there are only a handful of “like believers”. And, as wonderful as it sounds to “move where you can get fed spiritually”….realistically, that is not possible for everyone. I have probably the best teacher that I have ever sat under that is on-line. I have never grown so much as I have in the past few years. Honestly, I have looked for believers to connect with as “the body” but most are only interested in “church”. I was actively “churched” for 40 plus years and I can truly say I am in a much better place spiritually now than ever before. I cannot deny the scriptures you have pointed out, but I also believe that many scriptures were for a specific people at a specific time for a specific purpose (like the Matt 24 verses about “fleeing to the mountains” and the 1 & 2 Thess. passages about “persecution and retibution” which obviously were NOT written to us, but to the original first century audience, as well as many more.) In an ideal world,yes, it would be great to be a part of a body of like-believers who would encourage you (as people quote Heb 10:25 for assembling together). but it is not always possible to have that kind of fellowship. This is why it is so important to keep close contact with other believers who can hold you accountable as well as sharpen you in the truth of the Word. In this technologically advanced world, I would hope more teachers would make themselves available on line for those of us who are not so fortunate to be where you are. The “act ” of going to church was addressed in Matthew 5:20 and again in Matt 23. Thank God for the fulfilled promise of the “new covenant” as found in Jer 31:31-34 where He says, ” I will put my law within them and on their heart I will write it and I will be their God and they shall be my people, And they shall not teach again each man his neighbor and each man his brrother, saying, “know the Lord” for they shall all know me…..for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will remember no more.” It’s a new covenant that we are a part of, not of “law keeping” but of faith in the finished, COMPLETE work of Christ.
Steve,
I understand that in some places it is hard to find a good church, yet it should be the desire of all true Christians to find one. The flee to the mountains scripture you mentioned certainly does have an application to a specific group at a specific time, but I believe you are greatly mistaken to think of the command to assemble and submit to godly leadership in this same way. Such is to greatly twist the Scripture.
My counsel to you would be to do all in your power to find a true Church and be a part of it. I hope you will hear the voice of the Shepherd in what I say, as He speaks to you through His infallible and inspired word.
Here’s what I mean by a true Church: http://effectualgrace.com/2012/02/29/the-marks-of-a-true-church/
SO much of the scripture you quote about church leadership is in reference to that first century church that was being established and particular issues they were dealing with. They REFER to an organized gathering…but I do not believe it is what we call “church” today. I still do not see a command from God to meet with a particlar group of people 3 times a week, twice on Sunday (not Sat, the sabboth), and listen to a man’s “opinion” about God’s word without the ability to respond to what he is saying (especially if he is wrong!) I think we as well-meaning Christians take scriptures and make for ourselves “comfortable gods” that fit our particular needs….and I refer to Numbers 21 where God commanded Moses to make a serpent of brass (you know the story)….but the sad thing is, in II Kings 18:1-4 the people were actually WORSHIPPING that brass serpent…700 years later!!!!! We need to be careful not to make mandates from God’s word that may not have been what He intended.
Steve,
I am greatly troubled by how you are mishandling the clear commands of Scripture and as a Pastor have sought to point you to the safety, protection and provision of His word. Along with prayer, that is all I can do.
I honestly feel that you have taken many “guidelines” from the Word and turned them into “mandates”. Here is where we have to be very careful not to fall into the trap of the Pharisees, especially now that we are living under the New Covenant and not bound to the law. I agree that many of the scriptures your friend quoted in his article were to encourage and build up believers, which can apply to us. But as far as to whom they were directly written, they were to specific people in specific churches who were about to undergo the most horrific trials of all time in the persecutions by Rome under Nero as well as from the apostate Jews. They desperately needed each other and, as “new converts” they needed constant encouragement to stay true to their new found freedom in Christ. I am a bit confused as to what you believe constitutes “salvation”. If it is by faith and faith alone, then for you to question someone’s salvation based on their membership to a group, then I would have to disagree with your interpretation of true salvation. I honestly appreciate your obvious love for the Lord and your study of the Word….and I thank you for sharing your interpretations. I do not mean to make you mad or question your authority…I believe that we grow by sharing what we feel like God reveals to us thru His Word. I have definitely changed my views over the years on issues, sometimes even when trying to disprove them, God has changed my thoughts. I don’t normally respond to blogs with people that I don’t even know because I don’t want to make an issue of things. This is why I don’t like to go to church and listen to someone else tell me what HE believes without the opportunity to share what I believe. I am not like most Christians who never study the Word for themselves. I study almost every day so I feel like I do have something to contribute……so, with that said, I will continue to seek God on my own, until He gives me a place where I can openly share what I am discovering.
Steve,
Justification is certainly by faith alone, and this faith that justifies is a living faith that both adores Christ and seeks to honor His word. Works are never the basis of our salvation but they are the fruit of it. Faith without works is dead and a dead faith saves no one. We are saved by the possession of faith not the mere profession of it. The man who dispises His word yet claims to be a Christian is merely someone who professes faith but does not possess true faith. The truly regenerated heart does not despise Christ commands or simply dismiss them for a previous age and time. The fact that you shun all ecclesiastical authority makes me very concerned for your soul. There is no biblical basis for the independent spirit you articulate. God calls each of His children into active particpation in the body of Christ, under godly leadership.
You have spoken freely and equated me as a Pharisee for calling people to honor His word by submitting to local church elders and become active members of a local church. I, for my part, have expressed my heartfelt concern for you and hope you will escape the enemy’s snare.
Thank you for the link. I look forward to studying that more.
John…please re-read…I did not equate you with the Pharisees. My remark was in reference to Matt 5 where Jesus said that unless our righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, then we would not inherit the kingdom, which to me, refers to their emphasis on their “doing” rather than “being” the righteousness of God thru Christ (I Cor 1:30). They missed everything that God had for them all because of their focus on themselves rather than on Christ and His finished work. I appologize that I offended you. I was saying that “we” (including myself) must be careful not to become “works” focused, as that was such an area of struggle for me, esp in earlier years.
btw….I won’t bother you anymore….but I do appreciate the thoughts from you & your friends….gives me something to think about.
I am a christian but have been disappointed so much by my pastor and congregation that i,ve grown distant from churches all together and am almost a little hesitant about forming a relationship with a church.It greatly troubles me that I feel this way but I,m not sure what to do?