TurretinFan: Response to Cursilista Regarding Church History
Cursilista wrote: The one thing that bugs me is that the question I would ask is for a Protestant explanation of how did Christianity move forward through time after Christ died.
We have a pretty clear answer to that. Read the book of Acts. It says zero about a Roman-centered Christianity. Rome is part of Paul’s mission field, wherever Paul and other missionaries go.
Cursilista continued: Give an explanation of what form of organization did Christianity take that survived since the time of Christ to today.
The form of the organization was initially elders in every city (Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:), accompanied by deacons (Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:)…
Eventually, a monarchical episcopate emerged, in which one of the elders became designated as “the” bishop. Later, certain bishops gained a preeminence over others, particularly in cities that were important in the Roman empire. I could go on, and recite the tale of the development of a variety of different organizational forms that have existed from ancient times down to modern times, but suffice to say that there have been a significant number of different organizational forms that have existed, both in ancient times and – of course – in modern times.
Cursilista continued: Christ said that his church would not be overcome by the gates of hell. Satan would not prevail over his church, therefore Christ’s church had to have existed since his death to current time and will continue to exist forever.
This is a non sequitur, premised on a misunderstanding of what Christ said.
First of all, the organizational form of the apostolic era church (with a plurality of elders accompanied by deacons in every city) was quite not carefully maintained. Even historians within the Roman communion (such as Robert Eno and Francis Sullivan) acknowledge this fact.
Second, the apostasy of individual churches (even very many of them) does not entail victory of Satan over Christ’s church. Recall that during the time of the Old Testament, it seemed to God’s prophet Elisha that he was the last follower of God on earth, but God replied that there were 7000 others. Thus, even if for a few years – or even a few hundred years – there were only 7000 scattered followers of Christ, it would be Satan’s error to think he had the victory over the church.
We need not, however, assume that apostasy was so complete that there were only 7000 believers. Certainly there were many errors that crept into the churches, even from a very early time. Nevertheless, salvation is not obtained by having perfect doctrines or perfect practices, but rather by trusting in Christ alone for salvation.
Third, the reference to the gates of hell is a reference to death, not Satan. Recall that Wisdom 16:13 states: “For thou hast power of life and death: thou leadest to the gates of hell, and bringest up again.” The promise that Jesus is making in Matthew 16 is not some kind of victory in spiritual defense against Satan (after all, in warfare gates are themselves defensive not offensive) but rather victory over death: resurrection. The “church” that Christ is talking about here is all believers. As Christ explains: “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. … No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. … Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54)
Cursilista continued: So name that church, name the leaders of that church, show a succession of those leaders, there is a 2000 yr. span of time which has to be accounted for.
This request proceeds from the faulty premises identified above. Christ does not promise that every apostle would be faithful, much less that those who came after them would be faithful. The head of Christ’s church is one: Christ, as it is written: “And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,” (Ephesians 1:22), “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.” (Ephesians 5:23), “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.” (Colossians 1:18).
It is true that Christ died, but Christ was raised again on the third day and continues to live even until this day. So, the two thousand year time span is fully accounted for.
Moreover, while Christ is bodily absent from us, he has provided us with both the Holy Scriptures and the Holy Spirit. Thus, we can learn what we need to believe to be saved from them. The churches are an aid to that, but they are (and must be) subordinate to both.
Cursilista wrote: What churches did the Apostles start? They should still be around today.
Why would one assume such a thing? Look at the letters to the seven churches in Revelation (sorry, Rome didn’t make that list). There is no promise to those churches, which were started in the apostolic era that they would endure forever, or that they would endure without apostasy. Indeed, can you find those seven churches now?
Cursilista continued: For 1500 years, my only knowledge of such a Christian church is the Catholic Church.
There are other churches that claim an ancient lineage. The Eastern Orthodox churches are the most visible alternative, but there are others as well – such as the Copts in Egypt and the Ethiopian Orthodox. The fact that a church claims an ancient lineage does not demonstrate that the church teaches what the apostles taught. We can know what the apostles taught from the Scriptures, and we can compare the teachings of churches like Rome to those teachings to see whether they have maintained or departed from the apostolic faith.
Moreover, Rome’s claims to being ancient are easily challenged. Events like the Council of Constance or the move from election by the people of Rome to election by the Cardinals suggest that the modern papacy is disconnected from the older Roman bishoprics. The fact that men have obtained the papacy by simony similarly negate the idea that somehow the Roman bishopric has been maintained against Satan’s attacks. Do we even need to mention mention men like Julius III and Alexander VI who occupied the papacy but demonstrated by their way of life that they were not Christians?
Cursilista wrote: The Protestant Reformation took place in the early 1500’s.
That’s a typical sociological date. However, of course, at the time Luther was treated as being a continuation of what Huss (1369-1415) and Wycliffe (1328-1384) had started before him, in terms of opposing Rome. And we could go back even prior to Wycliffe to the Waldensians, who trace their roots to Peter Waldo (1140-1218). Of course, this is only in the West. An East-West division occurred in 1054. So, while the Protestant Reformation was a very notable and important event, it’s more of a continuation of lots of people disagreeing with the bishop of Rome, and the bishop of Rome (at least from the 11th century) acting as an autocrat (see the power struggle between Emperor Henry IV and the pope of his day, for example).
Cursilista continued: The Protestants need to fill in a 1500 yr. gap as to what was Christ’s church, other than the catholic church, here on earth for those 1500 yrs. If they cannot, then, they have to admit that the Catholic church is the church that was established by Christ. If Christ said he church would endure forever then, either his church started at Pentecost and continues to today or Jesus waited 1500 yrs. to start his church during the protestant reformation. The later proposition is hard to believe.
Mostly, this is already addressed above. The faulty presupposition behind this argument is that Christ came to establish a single denomination. Instead, the rock upon which Christ’s church is built is a confession of faith in Christ alone (“Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God”). That is to say, “the church” is whoever trusts in Christ alone for salvation. It’s not an organization with a headquarters in Rome, ruled by men in fancy clothes who sit on thrones.
Cursilista again: Also in this debate, my two cents would be to ask the question and make this supposition . Is god a god of order or disorder. In order to organize men, there needs to be a committee and a head of that committee that controls the debate with authority.
Cursilista assumes too much. In the Old Testament era, there was no pope, yet the same God ruled his people then. Now, we have Christ as the head of our church, and we have his official word, the Scriptures, to guide and rule us. That, however, is not enough for some, it seems.
Cursilista wrote: When Jesus left this earth , he left his church in the hands of the apostles, humans, his committee, to organize and keep intact all of his teachings.
Actually, when Jesus left, he sent the Holy Spirit who inspired the apostles and evangelists to write Holy Scripture.
Cursilista continued: Some of those teachings were not written down, so the bible says, because, all that Jesus taught his apostles couldn’t be written down, it would fill up the earth with books.
Cursilista may have misunderstood the verse in question, but let us suppose that not all of Jesus’ teachings were included in the Bible. If so, how could we reliably know what those other teachings were? We would have to examine the historical record to see what else the apostles were teaching, beside those things that were included in Scripture. But when we examine the historical record, we don’t see the distinctively Roman teachings (like papal infallibility, the bodily assumption of Mary, or the immaculate conception) being taught in the earliest period.
Moreover, the distinctively Roman dogmas are not that hard to put into book form. So, it is not the case that these were simply not included because the amount of dogma was too much for the New Testament to fit it all. Indeed, certain Roman advocates attempt to allege that Rome’s distinctive dogmas actually are found in Scripture.
On top of that, we see that the early Christians plainly did not hold to things like papal infallibility. While many people say nice things about Rome, and many people even seek the wisdom or authority of the bishop of Rome at various times in the patristic era, where does anyone argue that the bishop of Rome is infallible? It’s absurd to think that such a doctrine is apostolic or from Christ himself, yet we see people try to argue that today.
Cursilista again: Therefore, the Apostles with someone as the, lets call it “Chairman of the Board” of the committee, was the governing authority of the faith.
The book of Acts does not reflect this. On the contrary, the seeming “Chairman” of the council described in Acts 15 is James, not Peter (who was living in Antioch or Samaria at that time, not Rome), and certainly not Linus (who is not even mentioned). Likewise, as noted above, Rome’s own historians dispute the idea the Roman papacy is something that was from the beginning.
Cursilista concluded: How else would the faith survive intact if not for some form of human organizational body in place to keep the teachings intact and without error or human interpretation to twist the teachings to cultural changes as time went by.
The answer should be obvious: Holy Scripture and the Holy Spirit preserve and persuade us of the apostolic faith. There is no promise all believers will have beliefs totally free from error. But our faith does not depend an organization of men or a particular denomination of believers.
-TurretinFan